Geeklog Forums

Due to recent discussions in this forum here:

http://www.geeklog.net/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=78733

Myth No.1: "Geeklog is worse than [x] because they do not have a start-page for non-geeks"
So lets have a look at it, what is Geeklog? Geeklog is - as it says - a "Geek's Log". So it is not like Mozilla. Other teams might have some geeks in their team. We have _only_ geeks. The rest of the other teams are politicians, salespeople and marketing. We do not have a marketing team. We do not have a designer at hand. We are happy we have a logo! What a shame of course. But we do not have all of this. Does that make the CMS worse? No. Does it make it less accessible? Maybe. Probably some people feel turned away because of this. But to be honest, the features of Geeklog are as such (just take the permissions) that a non-geek might have serious trouble getting through it. I had trouble when I tried to understand it the first time. But still ... if someone would come and say "hey guys, I like your software, I cannot code, but I can make a great intro-site for non-geeks, I am sure I would pay the domain, probably the webspace and make sure that we get that running.

Conclusion: Confirmed, but ready to change, just throw ressources at us please, while we code!

Myth No 2: "Geeklog is loosing users because everyone thinks its dead! No-one knows when the next version comes out, nobody knows what features it will have!"
Well we are geeks but at the same time employees, fathers, husbands etc, we have other things to do than to market our own work by writing a blog on what we are currently working on. We are a small team. Look how many people contributed the majority of code to the last version 1.4.1.
I normally announce in the dev-list what I am about to do next as soon as I think it will take a certain time to complete and ask for input. But as people stated correctly, we do not write up what we expect to have in the next version. Why? Because we do not know. We never sit together in a conference and discuss this. I personally prefer to tell what I have done instead of telling what I will do since saying what I will do might be as well a weather forecast. Many things that I tried to do in code in the past turned out to be impossible. So is geeklog loosing people because of this? Well I have never ever installed a software because of what it might have in the future. I look how active the forum is. I look if the last release or bugfix was more than 2 years ago. I look if there were significant improvements in the last release.

Conclusion: Plausible for some, busted for the majority.

Myth No 3. "Geeklog has a too long release cycle!"
Personally I would like to see all features that are in CVS already since some time live. But on the other hand, I _hate_ upgrading my websites. There are too many files, settings, things I forgot, hacks etc to watch out for. In addition to that, many other people complain if the version are released too quickly. That is also one reason why we have plugins, so other people can release new versions w/o the core code to be pushed out too often. So if you think its slow, you might not represent the majority of the users.

Conslusion: Plausible for some, busted for the majority.

Myth No. 4 "The Core team is a Gentlmen's Club that does not let other people in"
What? Sure, Confirmed, only because I LOVE beeing in clubs!
Well, I admit that we do not have a sign on the door that says "Core developers wanted". But we do have a mailing list and a forum where we talk to many developers. But finally, we are people who work together. And we have to get along. If we do not get along, GL goes nowhere. So if people want to become core developers, there are many criteria. You have to write code that is applicable for many, not just for you. You have to show that you write code that fits the coding standards both in quality as we as in style. You have to have a style of communication that everybody in the core team is comfortable with. You have to stick to announcements and promises and to a certain degree to timelines as they are announced. If one of those fail in the eyes of one of the core team or maybe more, you better start forking.
Why that is like that? Because many cooks spoil the code. And only the amount of fixes I have to do to user-contributed code is enough to make me think to stop doing it. Other core devs are already angry at me once a month because of the mistakes I make in my own code, so I rahter care about that. Only the list of things still amiss in the gloogle summer of code projects that make a "perfect system" out of a "well-working code" show where the issues are. Read the dev-list and you know what I am talking about.
Finally, you can ask "Can I be a core guy" and get a straight answer. You can ask "why not" and might receive none at all. I wonder how many people who ask you "can we date/be friends/work together" get a straight, honest, and _written_ answer from you. We do this here because we like it. If we are stressed out by someone asking in a rude way why this or that does not exist or does not work, we do not have the impression if it gets more fun when this person becomes a core dev.
I also wonder how many other teams in the same size handle that differently. And what their turnover in team members are. Finally all mistakes in the code have to be reset by Dirk and not the person who messed it up. And to that note, the last person who got kicked out because there was simply too much to clean up after was a girl. So we had a girl as a core dev, just not for a long time. One last question is why we need more core developers? If we have trouble today coming up with a planned featurelist for the next release, how can that become better if more people contribute code? The people who want to become core devs just want to see their own code in the core. They do not want to join because they want to write documentation of existing code, manuals or other things that are good to have besides the code. So it only become more complicated with more coders.

Conclusion: Busted. Just because we dont roll out the red carpet for you, does not mean we are elitist asocial women-hating selfindulged bastards.

Myth No. 5 "Geeklog is a Sellout because Blaine posted that NexPro article on the frontpage".
Well if Dirk or someone else would have posted an article on how Geeklog is becoming bigger because there is another company supporting it and oops - they are selling that product? - well nobody would have cared. People whould have said "wow great, more support/applications/whatever for GL! Now Blaine wrote it... well he is the epxert on the topic so he better write that text. We are not fake enough to write advertorials here. GL is for/from Geeks. Where is my marketing team?? :kickcan:

Conclusion Busted. You sell out if you sell something. GL does not sell anything. We take donations and bounties. Its all in the wording, isn't it? Where was that marketing book again?

> worse than [x] because they do not have a start-page

Who or where says so ???

> Geeklog is - as it says - a "Geek's Log"
RTFOL

>Well we are geeks but at the same time employees,
>fathers, husbands etc, we have other things to do than

So are all developers, coders at drupal, joomla, e107, plone etc


> Geeklog has a too long release cycle!
Geeklog 2 On Indefinite Hold said on September 16 2005 by Tony
Ongoing work, if any, with 1.4x series has no meaning as it is old
even does not support many important mods/plugins

> Geeklog is a Sellout

Did any one say "sellout" ? Its a question of ethics to throw
it on first page.
No harm in selling any product but then will all the smaller
and small and moderate contibutors get their share of money
who carried GL so far and contributed so far ???

:rtfm: Conclusion : To everyone her/his own conclusion, always

Dear Tokyohead,

Brevity is an art essential to "geeks"
Please talk less [ frame your opinion in lesser words ]
if you want to drive your point home :wink:

I am sorry if my post was hard to understand for you. I was writing in longer sentences to make a point to non-geeks, not to geeks. I was hoping that geeks have an understanding what geeklog is/has and why it is what is/has what is is/has.

GL was criticised for not having a more user-friendly start-page in the aforementioned post, and in the same context compared to other open source projects. I think that is a pretty clear comparative cirticism.


I was referring only to GL1, not to GL2. GL2 obviously cannot have a release cycle since it never had a release. A release cycle starts only after the first release.


If you think all contributors should get a share of the profits made through the aditional advertising on gl.net, you talk money, not ethics. Also, it is not really a good point to make here. If you contribute code to an open-source project under a GPL license, how can you retrospectively ask for money for that code if there is another project that works on the codebase and makes profit doing so? And if GL.net would get money from Nexpro for the advertising, the coders wont see a bit of it either since the money would go into payment of the hosting or other costs incurred.

Please decide on one argument. Either its money or ethics. And my point is still the same in both cases. If someone else would have reported it, its news, if Blaine writes it, its advertising? I would like to invite other projects that create Geeklog releated software and post their products to the page, and see if they get listed or not. If not, please complain. Otherwise I do not see a point for complaints.

I think those who complain should rather think about what the developers give to make GL happen for all of the community for free instead. If one of the devs gets some collateral advertising through an article that makes the whole community benefit as a whole I think you guys should rather be happy that the core coders get something tangible back instead just complaining anonymously about things lacking in the code.

GL has become GL or becomes GL because of multitude
of users contributing their bits of code, more important free time
and free feedback
This mutual non-commercial thing is not covered by any license
and so it is both money and ethics, however little money it may be.

But I see your embarrasment and I see why I should be
rather happy. So I am happy :banana:

>>Longer sentences to make a point to non-geeks, not to geeks

Non-geeks do not need longer sentences, so next time keep
it short and simple.

I do not feel any embrassment. Also, you will have to live with my style of writing as long as you read it, if you like it or not.

"" I was writing in longer sentences to make a point to non-geeks, not to geeks.""

"" you will have to live with my style of writing as long as you read it, if you like it or not.""

These are two completely different arguments

Of course. They never meant to be the same argument.
The one states why I used the style in the initial article and the other states that however I write, I will not change just because you tell me to do so.

IMHO, Do not use then 2 posts to say what can be said in one post :wink:

#1 I was trying to discuss this here already: http://www.geeklog.net/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=77286 Finally I designed a page http://geeklog.info/staticpages/index.php/durchstarten and improved it last week. After translating it we may use it here at geeklog.net too.


#2 Hm, before you start loosing users there is a stage which I `d call 'missing chances'.
I`d consider it very helpful to SEE the devs talk here on the forum rather than through an email list. It would make the impression of being eager and really doing work. It would also archieve posts nicely for future reference.

I had also suggested to design a page with all devs on it in an email to the dev mailer on Sat, 21 Jul 2007



I`m still willed to design such a page if the team likes the idea.


#4 is rather something on motivation. How many points does one have to collect to become a core team member or maybe a moderator of this forum or ... any other 'important' position?

This is a matter of personal motivation and in the long term a good thing for any team. Good to publish rules and to have a sort of sober committee deciding on that.

When I was with Dirk on the FrOSCon we had 2 people approach our stand talking with us about coding. They both had made the experience in their former volunteer work of not being fairly treated. This seems to be a common problem with teams.


#5 I think it is a much more a general question if is it good common sense to advertise / feature a company in a volunteer based project. This had to lead to discussions and I`d appreciate very much to set clear rules for that.
If yes, then it should be done in a neutral journalistic way with more companies e.g. with the bounty givers 'AOE media GmbH' http://www.geeklog.net/article.php/bounties or anybody out of the community doing commercial work.

Off course there could also be an advertising topic 'commercial work by members', why not? It would help separating editorial text from advertising. This is what every good newspaper does.

Very good points made, 1000ideen
I agree.

However, I beleive there is a serious attitude probblem as can be seen the way
a moderator is "taking" just in the above posts.

That apart, whether you pay or not pay, whether you create a very homely
atmosphere or a very geeky one, the ROOT problem with GL is its core ....
the way other cms-s have advanced [ see drupal core, for example ]
with definite roadmap + its range of hooks/api energetic developers just not
feel attracted to GL

You can argue and argue with me or be an ostrich
or say "why not develope yourself" or whatever ...
but this is the sad truth.

Before you do anything you need a good, not backdated core
( with gophp5 in mind too ) and a roadmap for a range of modules which are very important
these days ( like per user blog, snw etc )

When a project becomes bigger and bigger growth itself is something to struggle with. It is not an easy task for a team. Chosing a new core developer means also a risk: will he make us drown or dream? The more different that person is the more risky it is. Imagine a worst case: the team splits up into 2 parts like it happened with Mambo. There is a real danger.

Energetic developers feel attracted to energetic CMS. Sober safety minded CMS are looking for similar developers. On the other hand it is always good to have contrarians, they may deliver the best ideas etc. But one thing is for sure, nobody is happy without a team.

So how could an energetic developer approach a sober and safety minded team? How could such a team accept such a developer?

Anybody having some theoretical ideas?

They don't really talk on the mailing list either. Things start to get hashed out on the mailing list and then discussion mysteriously stops.
The mailing list is archived. Although they lost a bunch of it in the server move.
Sigh. Yeah, dream a lovely dream.
This goes back to my philosophy of Geeklog concept. Geeklog is a means to an end for the devs. They use it to sell intranet solutions to businesses. As such it is structured for corporate use. There are people who moderate the site (admins) and there are people who passively use the site's information (employees). No one cares about Fred-from-accounting's views on politics so user blogs and user home pages are just not in Geeklog. Until members of the core team are paid to make social networking websites, social networking functions will never find their way into Geeklog.

That said, I see no reason for the core devs to create committees or a checklist for getting into the core team. The core team isn't big enough to need these things. I don't begrudge them the right to say who is or who isn't a core developer.

Well, being an irritant hasn't worked for me.

>Until members of the core team are paid to make social networking websites, social networking >functions will never find their way into Geeklog

It can be other way round too as it has been for drupal. alycia, elgg ....
Make good solutions ... social networking ... whatever
people will donate , there can be paid services for additional support or service
as well as adverts, as well as prize money like packtpub
and you get paid

Unless we have nothing ... no good hooks/api ... modern developers wont get
attracted ( see how many developers are working free for drupal, e107 etc ) ...
no raodmap to go php5 ... etc etc etc

We also need to prioritize ... are we here to devote our sleepless nights , soak in endless fun named coding as primary ( and money as secondary ) goal or earning = dayjob as our primary goal.

Surely to run a site and cover for bandwidth money is needed ... but that can be achived in various ways eg php.net does and so do many other php cmses.

If it'll help to dispel some of the negativity, here's my tuppence'orth:

If you're thinking of setting up a blog, use WordPress. Unless, of course, you have no problem finding your own arse with both hands, in which case you'd have a lot more fun with Geeklog.

I use Geeklog for just about all of my websites, both personal and for clients. I don't use it because I like to know what's going on behind the scenes, or what's happening in future releases, or when those releases are coming, because I don't. I don't use it because there are lots of easily-locatable extensions, all catalogued and sorted on one site, because there aren't. I don't use it because it's easy to handle, because it isn't (this is debatable, see my reference to Joomla! below - if you've ever typed so much as a single line of code, or even if you have basic problem-solving skills, Geeklog is probably the easiest and most intuitive engine to use, but if you're a total spork then it's gonna be way over your head). I don't use it because there's a free hosting service like there is for WordPress, because there isn't (well, there's this one, but oddly enough, nobody's taken me up on this yet). I don't use it because it looks good, because it certainly doesn't (can we PLEASE have a new default theme? If I make a couple of nice default themes with colour variations, possibly based on something looking a bit like the one I've used for retroreviews.net, what are my chances of having them included in the next release?).

I use Geeklog because it's absolutely bleeding-edge. I use it because it ties in nicely with other sites (the Remote Authentication feature had me squirming and giggling like a schoolgirl). I use it because it doesn't patronise me (to create a menu item in Geeklog, open up the block and type in a link - Joomla!, on the other hand, says "No, no, I'll do that for you," and then puts you through a bewildering array of HALF :banghead: A :banghead: DOZEN :banghead: menu screens so that it can determine what you want and then implement something a bit like it without you ever having to use those funny pointy brackets). I use it because it doesn't use Smarty, which is the dumbest invention ever created. I use it because it's easy to make nice templates for. I use it because it's very secure, and very fast. I use it because it can be used as a backend for static HTML websites. I use it because I can make it perform just about any function. I use it because its SEO capabilities are far better than the competition. I use it because I like it, and because I'm used to it, and because I still think it's the best and most flexible combination of blog and CMS available today.

Admins, keep up the good work. But tell us about it every now and then.

---

Silly browser RPG: improbableisland.com!

Its nice to see you are so happy.
I guess the multitude of unhappy ones do not bother or care to speak.
Which even if negative on the outside would have been a positive impetus
for a forward thrust of GL.

Pardon me for asking but Since you are so successful with GL can you kindly let me know :
1) How as admin you can put or change the name of an author or create "more" link for online users ?
2) How you allow users to upload image or media with their stories or allow them to edit/delete comments
[ 1 , 2 being very basic just like inbox + compose is basic in any email ]
3) How you allow users to add "favorit authors/friends" or form their own groups ?

Probably you need none or do you want to have a taste of those features ?

Ok, I'll bite: What the heck are you talking about? We have quite a few hooks and APIs in Geeklog. They may not always be well-documented, but if anyone is having a problem with them, they can always ask on the geeklog-devel list.

And "no roadmap to go to PHP5"? Geeklog runs just fine on PHP 5 - no need for any roadmap ...

That you're missing a few features here and there is fine, but please stop talking of things you clearly know nothing about ... :speechless:

bye, Dirk

@headless This goes very much off topic but have a look at "Userlogin for Root Static page" for question #1 http://tokyoahead.com/main/staticpages/index.php/geeklogdevelopment. Also users can upload images if they have story.edit rights.